Hello Nolan,
Interesting that you would make the statement about supporting street cars. I was going to come to a Foria meeting and ask if we could get that organization to join together on protesting the Barn as well as the Trolley system.
As I have written before, the barn on our school can only be described as Just Wrong all the Way around. But on the larger picture, I would like you to tell us why you or anyone would support something like this that is:
1. Financially wrong for our City!
a. Taking money from our schools and our youth
b. Taking money from our rec. and sports centers.
c. Taking money from building treatment and senior centers
d. Taking money from every other infrastructure in need
e. As Stated by DDot - will need to be subsidized
f. Electric buses are less costly, multiple uses, easier to repair, easier to move when they break down and don't need new Barns which allows us to keep our green space and have existing building or lots for more usefully developed.
2. Takes away from having 38 miles of Bike Lanes!
3. Not needed in DC for development to occur as we have Tons of Development all over and no existing Street Cars. I guarantee if they had put wires underground on 12th Street and infused some money for store fronts, we could have looked great over here as well.
4. It is nothing but A REALLY EXPENSIVE SET of BUSES linked together on SHINY RIMS
A. Doesn't it make sense to show how much you and others (who would like to have street cars) care about our children and our overall community by supporting every effort possible to enhance the environments that surrounds them and allowing our kids every opportunity to succeed?
B. Why can't those who want street cars choose to ride on the bus with others who currently ride the bus instead, choose to spend this much money on another system that will also have to be subsidized?
C. Can you show me another city that they are implementing street cars where they have a transit system in place like DC?
D. Why can't we expand the Circulator instead?
E. Don't you see the racial divide drawn in the sand when it comes to having discussions about street cars?
F. Since Blacks have experienced having Street Cars in the City more so than the new White residents, wouldn't it make sense that they would be better positioned to be the discerning ones on this - having experienced both?
G. Why would you and others who support street cars not put our kids and our seniors before this subsidized "luxury"?
H. Please give me your 10 reasons for having Street Cars and support this financially?
I am sure there are other reasons that others will have. However, I would really like your thoughts on this and I would like Foria, since that group is so interested in making our neighborhoods better, to view putting our kids, seniors and returning citizens ahead of street cars and the very selfish, self centered residents as a way to help better our neighborhood.
We would like a support letter to be sent to the Mayor against the Barn being placed at Spingarn and against the Street Cars until all of our schools, rec. centers, etc in our "not as privileged" areas are equal to others which are really nice and are fully renovated. Show us how community minded Foria is and let's prioritize the spending of our Capital money!!
You see, I and many others see the support for a Barn at Spingarm and the support for Street Cars overall as very troubleling!! To know that DDot has said that this system is also going to have to be subsidized and the fact that we have shared lots of information that shows how 2 billion could be spent in a much much much ..... more productive way in changing the environment of our most needed neighborhoods (including schools, senior facilities, etc) and not get the full support of our ALL of our White neighbors, says VOLUMES.
Anyone on the Council who puts this Trolley Car ahead of all of our struggling neighborhood priorities are selling BS by saying it promotes "development" and better for "environment" but instead, are probably being compensated somehow - of course "ethically and legally" and within Campain rules!
Before I go, let me share that it is amazing that we can put a man on the Moon 50+ years ago but we can't figue how to get Trolley Tracks over the bridge to connect the "Hood" to "extended Capitol Hill". Also, it sure is strange the the Street Cars are stopped infront of Homeland Security in SE and fails to be connected to the rest of the folks who already live there!!
Looking forward to your answers Sir.
Rob Ramson
On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Nolan Treadway <nolantreadway@gmail.com> wrote:
KPW,
You sent a press release to this list from the Cato institute titled: "The Great Streetcar Conspiracy". This release and study went on to attempt to undermine streetcar systems across the country. That was just one of several articles posted here criticizing streetcar systems at large.I can't speak for the author, but it was at that time that I felt like the conversation had gone from discussing the carbarn to condemning the entire streetcar system.I don't have strong feelings either way on the carbarn as I'm not very familiar with the Spingarn campus or the surrounding areas, but I do support the DC Streetcar system in general and I do agree with the author that the conversation seemed to go from just the carbarn to the entire system.--NolanOn Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Brian Bradford <brianbradford42@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: KPW, KAPoW <WKPW3@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [ward5] [Another point of view professing to be the majority] "Trolleys" are good for Ward 5, if we can get them by Sally Hobaugh (GGW)
To: ward5@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 2:39 PM
By the way, I don't think the issue is to stop the streetcar system that the city is building. That issue is beyond us at that time whether we think it is righ or wrong. I think that some folks get the wrong impression with people that disagree with them.There is nothing wrong with wanting to make Spingarn High School great without a car barn affiliated. There is nothing wrong with pushing for alternative sites. Why are residents in Ward 5 that have lived here for a while judged to be the bad guys for wanting something different? Do all newcomers think alike? Does every new resident want the streetcars at any cost?
-----Original Message-----
From: KPW, KAPoW <WKPW3@aol.com>
To: ward5 <ward5@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jun 29, 2012 1:59 pm
Subject: [ward5] [Another point of view professing to be the majority] "Trolleys" are good for Ward 5, if we can get them by Sally Hobaugh (GGW)
This has got to be one of the most insulting articles I have read. Why does everybody who is older have to be threatened? So sad. So sick. Why does one group feel holier than thou and unwilling to listen to other points of view. Is it so horrible to look at other locations, but it is clear that people that have the minority point of view are not listened to. Are they monolithic in thinking? If another place is identified that could possibly work, would that be all right?KPWTransit
"Trolleys" are good for Ward 5, if we can get them
by Sally Hobaugh • June 28, 2012 2:22 pmA vocal minority in Ward 5 is pushing back against a streetcar maintenance facility at Spingarn High School, and has recently broadened its opposition to the streetcar system as a whole. But while loud, these opponents don't reflect the views of most Ward 5 residents. It's time for Ward 5 residents to speak up in favor of new investments in our ward.
Photo by DDOTDC on Flickr.I live in Ward 5 and I support streetcars. Anyone reading the Ward 5 listserv this week would see that it has become quite a contentious topic, and might even think that my opinion is in the minority. But I don't believe that is true.The debate first arose from the proposed streetcar maintenance facility on part of the Spingarn High School lawn and the outrage that some in the community feel about this proposal. Some residents have taken the opportunity to bash the streetcar system as a whole.As the discussion evolves away from the location of the car barn to the entire streetcar system and even further into the "bike lanes, dog parks and gentrification" realm, I am left frustrated. I have read countless pros and cons on streetcars and light rails. I have experienced streetcars in many other cities around the world. I want them and everything that comes with them.I want the increased ridership, permanent tracks and stops, overhead wires and the big, shiny red streetcars traveling down them at regular intervals. Instead of opposing any projects at all costs, we should be lobbying for more of the coming investments to happen in Ward 5, and ensuring that we reap a fair portion of the economic and infrastructure benefits that will come with the new transportation system.I want the District to take a real interest and invest in Ward 5, helping to fill our empty storefronts and letting our residents travel comfortably around the city."Car barn" could improve, not harm, Spingarn and the area.The proposal for the Springarn maintenace facility, or "car barn," does not bother me. The location is off a major road that will have a streetcar line running down it. The current streetscape in the area could easily accommodate a new building.If DDOT sites the facility close to Benning Road, which is one of the 2 options, it will leave a large space, partly green and partly tracks, between the car barn and the school, and it will actually replace a grimy, shuttered DC Library mini-branch building.
Potential locations for car barn at Spingarn. Image from DDOT via Frozen Tropics.
Concept sketch for car barn. Image from DDOT.The car barn will be brand new. We can ensure that it blends in and adds to the area. It could even be designed to match the architecture of the school. Many of DC's historic car barns are beautiful buildings; a new one could be, too.
Historic car barn on Capitol Hill. Photo by NCinDC on Flickr.Instead of opposing to the car barn, Ward 5 residents should be working with DDOT to ensure it is the best car barn that we can get. We can set an example for the many more similar facilities the District will build as it adds and extends the streetcar lines.We should make sure that it is a true training facility that ties in and expands the current curriculum at Phelps Vocational Technical Academy and provides strong job training for students and adults alike.Debate really isn't about the car barn, but the streetcar generallySadly, some vocal Ward 5 activists have seized on the Springarn controversy to spread opposition to the entire streetcar system. They've sent press releases, posted messages and issued calls to action. For example:Premier Community Development Corporation, PCDC, is opposed to the District Government's proposal to spend over 1.5 billion dollars on a trolley car. PCDC also opposes the DC Department of Transportation's ill made decision to build the streetcar barn on the front lawn of Spingarn High School.The opening lines demonstrate that the Springarn issue has already become secondary. As Rhode Island Ave Insider has written, some members of PCDC are older residents who feel threatened by the engagement and activism of newer, younger residents who want to see a different kind of investment and change. It's not surprising that they've latched onto the term "trolleys" as a derogatory. This fear is so deep-seated that they ignore the fact that their outright opposition just further delays DDOT from connecting the streetcar to transportation hubs, as planned.PCDC opposes these short cited[sic] decisions in support of the trolley car for the following reason. First, the trolley plan is not well thought out and does not serve the needs of the majority of the residents that elect to use public transportation. The trolley does not connect to any transportation hubs and thus is not a part of a comprehensive city-wide transportation system. Currently, the trolley starts at the foot of the Hopscotch Bridge and ends around 26th and Benning Road. Clearly, the trolley is only intended to ferry bar and restaurant customers from one end of H Street to the other.Then there are community members who are more concerned with making sure DDOT listens to them than with getting the best investments for Ward 5. Activist Kathy Henderson wrote:I am glad many of Ward 5's leaders attended the meeting regarding the car barn fiasco. It is really a bad idea to tear up Spingarn's front lawn for an industrial eyesore. I find the entire matter to be very disrespectful to residents, underscoring that DDOT representatives were not chastened by the last meeting on the issue in April; they came back and uttered the same nonsense again. [Emphasis added]Still others see streetcars as an investment that's not for them, such as LeRoy Hall:By the way, who are the streetcars for anyway? This reminds me of those red Circulator Buses for people in Georgetown to visit people on Capitol Hill.It's sad that some people have lost sight of the streetcars as an investment in our communities and in our mobility. That makes it that much more important that the larger community speak out in support.Streetcars will benefit all residents, include the lower-income residents of Ward 5. About 35% of residents do not own cars, and DC plans to make the streetcar fare the same as the Circulator, which is less today than the bus fare.Streetcars, much like the Metro, will become a permanent fixture in the community. Ward 5 has the Red Line of the Metro running through it north to south, and is briefly touched by the Yellow and Green Lines at one station, Fort Totten. Many of us define our location by the nearest Metro stop. The planned streetcar lines for Ward 5 would run mostly east to west across the ward, creating new transportation connections and new stops to identify with the community.The permanent nature of the streetcars with their tracks installed in the ground will develop a confidence in the investment in an area. Adding streetcars and streetscape improvements would enhance the travel, experience and atmosphere of our ward.Anyone that has walked down Rhode Island Avenue NE can will agree that we still need a lot of infrastructure improvements to ensure it becomes a more vibrant destination, attracting new businesses to empty storefronts and bolstering existing ones. The success of streetcars in spurring economic development is well demonstrated in other cities such as Portland.Planning in Ward 5 and the rest of the District, especially near streetcar lines, needs to ensure that affordable housing is a priority. The streetcar will make the neighborhoods near it more valuable. That's great for existing homeowners; Ward 5 should discuss how it can do more to ensure that residents on fixed and low incomes are able to stay in their homes if they wish.Ward 5 should fight to get streetcars earlyWard 5's southern edge will benefit from the first streetcar line, the so-called "One City" line along Benning Road to downtown. In Phase 2 of the streetcar system, Rhode Island Avenue will get a line from Eastern Avenue, past the Metro station, to Florida Avenue where it will connect with the Florida Avenue line. A line in Phase 3 would connect Brookland to Woodley Park and Adams Morgan.The District released a Request For Information this week that would privatize and prioritize 22 miles of the streetcar system to be built over 5-7 years. However, except for the Benning Road segment at the ward's edge, none of the Ward 5 sections were included in this proposal. It is imperative that we push to have the Ward 5 lines included to spur the economic development in our ward, not fight against the streetcars.
22-mile priority streetcar system. Image from DDOT.I am a Ward 5 resident and I want streetcars. As a vocal minority in my ward spreads fear, uncertainty, and doubt, not to mention false information, opposing the streetcars, it becomes more and more important for those of who do support them to speak up. Who's with me?Take action
If you live in Ward 5, ask Councilmember McDuffie to support streetcars.First name: Last name:Email address:Street: City/state:
To: Kenyan McDuffie, DC Councilmember, Ward 5 Subject:Dear Councilmember McDuffie,Enter your comments here:
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Related posts:
- Streetcars aren't toys, buses aren't about respect (Nov 20, 2010)
- DDOT unveils vision for eight streetcar lines (Oct 23, 2009)
- Proposed Circulator will connect Ward 7 to the rest of DC (Nov 22, 2010)
- Get the Florida out of the Rhode Island Avenue streetcar (Nov 2, 2009)
- H Street-Benning Road could get streetcars by 2012 (Apr 14, 2010)
Sally Hobaugh runs the blog Life on the Edgewood about the Edgewood neighborhood in Northeast DC, where she lives, works and plays. She is on the board of the Edgewood Civic Association and The Friends of Edgewood Recreation Center. She also runs the Edgewood Neighborhood Monthly Cleanup, which she started in 2008. Comments
I live near the Ward 6, 5, and 7 border. I attended the April meeting you noted, and it was a farce. DDOT presented no options, and wanted no actual input (except for the cosmetic exterior of a transformer station at 12th & H) DDOT representatives literally said the car barn was going there at the school, the plans had already been decided.I fully support the streetcar, I welcome it's effects on the neighborhood, and property values. However, I completely agree with local residents who object to the placement of the facility in front of the school, this isn't NIMBYism, this is demanding DDOT and the Mayor work a little harder to find a better location for it. RFK is an obvious choice and it appears zero effort was put into securing a location there.DDOT has said they want to work with the community, but I haven't been to a meeting where they actually wanted input, they just want residents to feel like they're being listed to. It's pandering, and it's obvious.As a city council member in Mount Rainier, on the Ward 5 border along Rhode Island Ave, I also want to see the Rhode Island Ave streetcar! The historic turnaround of the old streetcar line was in Mount Rainier (now our traffic circle/bus stop). Retail spaces in the entire Rhode Island Ave corridor were built when the streetcar was running and its return would help revitalize those spaces.Our communities are bigger than our political boundaries, and our needs are best met by working together. Affordable transportation options are crucial in tough economic times and the cost of fossil fuel is only going to rise over the time it takes to build the streetcar (and then over its service lifetime). But as the writer says, we need to be mindful of affordable housing options and keeping long time residents in their homes as property values rise.by Brent Bolin on Jun 28, 2012 2:45 pm • link • reportGreat post, Sally. I don't live in Ward 5 (or in DC, for that matter), but I think the streetcar plan will be an asset to the city and the region.That said, if I was a resident of the neighborhood where the car barn is located and I saw the grey box depicted in that image above, I'd be upset too. The car barn isn't just a place to store and repair streetcars, it's something that everyone in the neighborhood will have to look at and interact with. It should look nice, and if they aren't already, DDOT should be talking to the neighborhood about what the building will look like and how it'll fit into the surroundings.That means slightly more detailed drawings (though not too detailed, because it'll look like they're going to build it tomorrow) of what the car barn will look like, not just a massing model.David Adjaye set the bar really high for public buildings in DC with his new libraries. Hopefully that awareness of good design will seep into other departments as well.I completely agree with local residents who object to the placement of the facility in front of the school, this isn't NIMBYism, this is demanding DDOT and the Mayor work a little harder to find a better location for it.Yeah! I'm not being a NIMBY, just get this facility out of my backyard and to someplace 'better'!Building a street car barn @ Springarn, especially if it is expensive, will further delay extending the H Street line across the river to Marshall Heights. You don't build a terminus, if you're really planning to extend the line in the near term. Until it crosses the river into Ward 7, the H Street trolley is a pointless boondoggle that offers no transit benefit or true unifying potential.RFK is an obvious choice and it appears zero effort was put into securing a location there.Why the hell should the District begin what would no doubt be a ridiculously long process with the federal government to acquire a piece of the RFK lot when they already own a perfectly good piece of land a mere 700 feet down the road?I swear I'm not being NIMBY, I just want you to put it somewhere else!Do people even understand how planning works? How could anything ever get done if step 1 in the process was not "plan" but "hey let's have a community meeting and ask people to put little dots on the map where our streetcar barn should go"? The district government did its job, which was create a plan and explain the reasoning to the community (we already own the land, it's along the streetcar route, and we can integrate a training program at the school) and then the got their input at the meeting! What exactly do you envision as "working with the community?"@mtp
When you are starting a rail system sometimes you have to start with a railyard in the middle of the system. See Brentwood rail yard - it was nearly 10 years before another yard was built at Shady Grove. And the car barn will not be a "terminus," the tracks into the barn will split off in the middle of the section of track that has been built - there is still another 900 feet of track to the east.[Deleted for violating the comment policy.] People have actually made it clear on the listserve that their very vocal opposition in this instance is the location of the streetcar barn. The city is clearly not doing enough to get this project right. [Deleted for violating the comment policy.]Whats the actual objection to locating the barn there? Is it just aesthetics? Or noise? Because, a. those really shouldn't be concerns that veto a project like this and b. will it be all that noisy? especially at night?I'm not so sure its an egregious breach of the public trust if DDOT isn't particularly concerned that someone down the block things a garage is ugly and doesn't hold hours of public meetings on it.I'm not so sure its an egregious breach of the public trust if DDOT isn't particularly concerned that someone down the block things a garage is ugly and doesn't hold hours of public meetings on it.+1. "Seeking community input" does not necessarily guarantee that everybody will be happy.DDOT's messed lots of stuff up here, but gosh, they've held TONS of meetings.Agree with MLD regarding the RFK lots, as they are hundreds of feet from Springarn. Clearly the issue is not with the car barn, but the streetcars in general. The land at RFK is right next to the water, which could be more parkland, housing, or whatever down the road. Dealing with the federal government will hold up the project even longer and waste countless hours of employees time when there is a perfectly good site the District already owns. I don't live in Ward 5 or I'd gladly sign that.We can't do what we want with RFK lots. So lets take that off the table.Current location is great, and will provide many employment opportunities for neighborhood and city residents. Obvious tie-ins for the vocational program at the school as been discussed.Let's start construction asap. All recent buildings by the DC government have been very high quality and expensive, there is no reason to believe this will be ugly and cheap.Until we find the $2.6 Billion for our current water runoff problem we need to tread cautiously on covering more green spaces with concrete and asphalt.@ Tom Coumaris,
Building the streetcar is just as much about saving our green space as it is moving people in a sustainable manner. Some of the coming development that could be paving over more acres in the suburbs could be focused on the streetcar lines by rebuilding our low scaled neighborhood centers. Looking at France which is yet another country pivoting full force towards street cars,
http://americancity.org/daily/entry/france-commits-to-tramways-a-possible-model-for-the-future-of-urban-rail
you'd think we would be further along. Unfortunatley, everything becomes political when change is a foot.Thayer-D--- You indeed would think we'd be further along; the new French streetcars operate in their own right-of-way, operate in grass medians, and don't have overhead wires in historic districts. Of course that's the way the old DC streetcars worked. Ah progress !As far as trashing the DC environment to save the suburbs, then why are we building a Metro to the cowfields of Loudoun County so they can be made into McMansionvilles?Green works everywhere and should be used everywhere. And we better learn how to green DC or those $2.6 Billion surface water overflow tunnels will be obsolete by the time they open.I live a few blocks away as well and all I've said is "Build the darn thing already." It's been delayed two and a half years, not too many kids are @ Spingarn anyway and that whole north section of Benning Road probably won't be disturbed that much by the streetcars. If anything, maybe it'll add a few jobs to the area by extending the progress on H Street a little farther east to join the two neighborhoods a little better and it could add impetus to open better access to the Arboretum from Benning Road than having to go all the way up Bladensburg.I don't have a problem with this in theory, but I hope the execution is more elegant than the mockups they're presenting.There are a number of firms wandering around that could probably execute this building with style and within the timeframe, if DC would bother to look outside of DC.by Neil Flanagan on Jun 28, 2012 11:37 pm • link • reportTom,
You're right about Loudoun county. As for the Car Barn, if you want to win over the public, I would recommend looking no further than the old car barn on 14th street in Brightwood or the one almost paralel to it on Georgia Ave. No offense to the architectural cognocienti, but looking at the comments on other posts concerning David Adjaye's new Library, it isn't selling well on main street.when we were looking to buy a house, we looked at a couple houses in Brookland. Fortunately they were pretty messed up internally (too many bad renovations) and overpriced (the market was still at peak), because for the moment we had forgotten that the "discourse" political and otherwise in Ward 5 is pretty damn wacked, and I didn't want to have to live in it-through it-with it.While there are legitimate concerns about car barn location (and note to Thayer D--a similar car barn to the one you're talking about used to be on the 1600 block of Benning Road (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rllayman/15327779/) and an extant one, converted to housing is on the 1500 block of East Capitol NE) the way the issue goes beyond to be incredibly reactive against streetcars (similar stuff happened with regard to the Metropolitan Branch Trail--and the idea was originally was conceptualized by a then Brooklander) is another example.One of my lines about neighborhood decline is that it is not only a function of disinvestment but of backwards looking legacy leadership.W5 illustrates this point to a "t."by Richard Layman on Jun 29, 2012 7:09 am • link • report"As far as trashing the DC environment to save the suburbs, "A. If you are referring to densification in general, well I am in near SE every day, and the changes have certainly not trashed this neighborhood. As for taking a tiny bit of grass for a car barn, I don' think that constitutes trashing the DC environment.
B. this isnt to "save the suburbs" its to save the planet. Part of that is preserving rural areas from becoming suburbs"then why are we building a Metro to the cowfields of Loudoun County so they can be made into McMansionvilles?"The areas where the proposed stops are are not cowfields they are already built up suburbs. The proposed new developments close to the stations will be relatively high density mixed use. But in any case, the reason we are builind that, is to transform Tysons from an auto centric wasteland into a vibrant urban place."Green works everywhere and should be used everywhere. And we better learn how to green DC or those $2.6 Billion surface water overflow tunnels will be obsolete by the time they open."I have an idea - calculate the amount of pervious area lost to be car barn, take a proportionate share of the tunnel cost, and add that to the cost of the street car project. Of course if the proposed car barn has a green roof, you will need to adjust accordingly. OTOH the increased density on H street will mean more people to share the 2.6 billion cost.Have you been to the library, Thayer?by Neil Flanagan on Jun 29, 2012 10:01 am • link • reportWalker- Those Loudoun County stops will have gigantic parking garages for a reason; ie. people will be able to drive from outer Loudoun and further out and take a quick Metro trip in. Areas that are now rural can be developed into exurbs. From the time the Springfield station opened and exurbs exploded in Prince William and Stafford the trend has been the same. Now that the western bypass is on the table again the developers and Loudoun are confused as to which they want priority for.Density has to do with better utilization of built environment we already have. The waste and under use of buildings in DC is appalling. In any new proposal to cover more permeable surface we have to consider its effect on the ground water runoff problem- that $2.6 Billion is no joke. But we never do. There's all this advocacy to concrete over McMillian Park, concrete over the front lawn of Springarn, build more structures with huge underground garages ad infinitum without any study of how all this new concrete will affect the surface water problem. That is how we got into this problem.If other urban centers (not just Paris) can stay green while having high density we can too. When "smart growth" becomes just about more and more concrete trashing the environment we've fallen down the rabbit hole." Those Loudoun County stops will have gigantic parking garages for a reason; ie. people will be able to drive from outer Loudoun and further out and take a quick Metro trip in."very few people from "outer" ie Western loudoun will use the metro - which is why Western Loudoun mostly opposes it. Most will be from eastern loudoun - sterling, ashburn, etc. They will use it to commute to Tysons mostly - they largely already do, but will now have a tranist option. Less auto use."Areas that are now rural can be developed into exurbs."Not in most of Western Loudoun, where zoning and conservation easements limit development. In those areas where greenfield development is taking place, its enabled by highways, not transit." From the time the Springfield station opened and exurbs exploded in Prince William and Stafford the trend has been the same."Most of those commuters go by road, and many do not commute anywhere transit accessible." Now that the western bypass is on the table again the developers and Loudoun are confused as to which they want priority for. "The folks against the silver line in LC are against it period. Those for it, want the silver line first (if the support the western bypass at all, which many do not)"Density has to do with better utilization of built environment we already have. The waste and under use of buildings in DC is appalling."which is why building new development on old parking lot, or on an old shopping center, adding units and activity without changing impervious area, is good."Density has to do with better utilization of built environment we already have. The waste and under use of buildings in DC is appalling. In any new proposal to cover more permeable surface we have to consider its effect on the ground water runoff problem- that $2.6 Billion is no joke."sure. Add a cost for lost pervious area. A real, but finite, cost." But we never do. There's all this advocacy to concrete over McMillian Park"Then I guess it would make more sense to have more units there in midrises and fewer in townhouses, to conserve pervious area."concrete over the front lawn of Springarn,"Only a part of it, IIUC." build more structures with huge underground garages"same impervious area, so Im still not convinced this adds to the stormwater problem."If other urban centers (not just Paris) can stay green while having high density we can too. "paris has schools with large green lawns near the center of the city?@Tom
If other urban centers (not just Paris) can stay green while having high density we can too.It seems to me you assume that every other city in existence has solved the problem of combined sewer systems and has done so just by preserving green space and not by spending hundreds of millions on separation or containment.This is false. Paris does the same thing we do - dump it when it overflows.There should be some sort of charge for removing pervious surface, and this charge could be reduced/eliminated if you install mitigating devices like green roofs, connected planter boxes, etc. But you have to propose a reasonable solution and reasonable regulations. "We can't build anything until we figure this out" is unreasonable and unrealistic.I live in Kingman Park, a few short blocks down Benning Road from the car barn site. We're in Ward 7, not Ward 5. I am eager for the streetcars to connect me and my neighbors - many of whom do not have cars for one reason or another - to the rest of Benning Rd. and H Street and Union Station. I understand concerns that the car barn will not fit with the neighborhood, but I am hopeful that it can be done in a way that works well enough for all of us and doesn't slow down the project any more.This is getting way off topic but since you seem to bring this up in any discussion, I feel like I should point you to some of the literature on the CSO topic, Tom:Compare the tables in these reports:
Page 6 (23 in PDF): http://www.publicpolicy.umd.edu/files.php/faculty/nelson/workshop/REDUCING%20COMBINED%20SEWER%20OVERFLOWS%20TOWARD%20CLEAN%20WATER%20IN%20WASHINGTON.pdf
Page 9 (11 in PDF): http://www.greenroofs.org/resources/greenroofvisionfordc.pdfIf you put a green roof on every building in DC over 10,000SF, you get a reduction of 334MG in overflow. If you implement the storage tunnel plan, the reduction is 2990MG. That is the difference we're talking about.@MLD: Why the hell should the District begin what would no doubt be a ridiculously long process with the federal government to acquire a piece of the RFK lot when they already own a perfectly good piece of land a mere 700 feet down the road?Don't want to disturb a really nice rant, BUT: I live nearby and drive through this area every day. The RFK lot that touches Benning Rd is really the obvious place to put it. It is NEVER used; it is alomost directly across the St from the school; it has a Metro flyover; and it is already paved over. The school grounds are beautiful and this would ruin its frontage. This is an industrial use that has nothing to do with academics.They delay in obtaining the land from the feds is small price to pay for something that will be there for generations.And it is mistake to conflate residents' pointing out the obvious error of this siting with general opposition to streetcars.wrt the RFK lot issue, I have argued for many years (since 2003, when I was on the board of H St. Main Street), that it was in the Greater neighborhood's best interest to create a master plan for the RFK site that re-engages the site, converts some to housing, such as along Benning Road, etc.Some people say, rightly , that since the site abuts the Anacostia, it's worth not developing all of it. Others say it is NPS land and the agreement with NPS is that the site can only be used for "recreational" purposes and I've said that can be changed.That's true, it can be changed, but DC would have to make a payment to NPS of some sort, not unlike the cost of extinguishing an easement, to be able to convert the use.Still, this argument is another instance of my general point that we need to do a master planning initiative for this area generally.It would be possible to put up temporary structures in the interim. Portland for the longest time (and maybe they still do) stored their streetcars under a freeway, basically outside. Although I presume they have an indoor maintenance facility as well.To be honest, while I don't agree with the general anti-streetcar arguments, I do see an issue with the use of the greenyard in terms of the school's viewshed.I do think it's crazy that the anti-people denigrate the job development and training aspects, especially wrt Phelps' vocational orientation.But that's just another element of the general W5 wackiness.by Richard Layman on Jun 29, 2012 11:47 am • link • reportAdd a Comment
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What happens if Loudoun drops out of Metro?
- What happens if Loudoun drops out of Metro?
- A simple guest parking pass program can fix many problems
- How easy is it to bring babies and toddlers on Metrobus?
- DDOT ponders contracting out streetcar and local bus routes
- "Trolleys" are good for Ward 5, if we can get them
- Turn Richmond Highway back into a string of distinct places
- Better signs could speed trains through Fort Totten
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